Posts by Half banana

18

What's the mechanism?

by Half banana in

i am perpetually challenged by the fact that most jws are completely duped by the propaganda pumped out relentlessly by the borg.

even intelligent ones; they unwittingly grovel to the gb decisions and follow the party line.

they do this for a number of reasons..

Too true Mak! (Good to see you here!) The psychological push to like and be with the people you admire is very relevant. The enthusiastic (but delusional) ‘friends’ who cheerily study with you and bring you hope, it’s a way out of real life problems, the talk of paradise, fairyland forever! No worries, no mortgage payments all you have to do is sell your soul to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society...you never need to have to think again...what a relief!

Like to elaborate on "spent cost fallacy" Eyefell4it2?

18

What's the mechanism?

by Half banana in

i am perpetually challenged by the fact that most jws are completely duped by the propaganda pumped out relentlessly by the borg.

even intelligent ones; they unwittingly grovel to the gb decisions and follow the party line.

they do this for a number of reasons..

Half banana

Thanks for your input folks, I do think Galaxy has come up with a significant point with people "succumbing" on the basis of finding a comfort zone.Nevertheless, like most things in life, complexity rules! The psychological trigger can only be pulled when quite a number of conditions are already in place. By including your replies, here is a rough summary:

1/ the right type of person i.e. one susceptible to belief without intellectual evidence

2/ the person above who has a need for a hope through changing their life trajectory e.g. a bereaved person, someone without hope of improving one’s circumstances

3/ someone introduced to JWs, studied with and been to the meetings or a JW relative, leaving or rather making the newbie to want to join in to please others and themselves

4/ someone prepared not to look at the internet from the start regarding the history of JWs and the ex JW community

5/ the preparation by the JW org to ASSIMILATE the newbie, love bombing, welcoming to the fold

6/ acceptance of the belief that the Borg supplies ALL the existential answers, including the authority of the GB and Bible

7/ exposure to the sustained propaganda from the GB to enforce the deceptive beliefs,

8/ and indeed the primary force comes from the human impulse to conform. As the Asch experiment shows; how even perception is distorted by an innate wish to be like others even in the light of contrary information.

9/ the conscious decision to give up worldly ambitions and henceforth look to the” future hope” putting all one’s eggs into the one JW basket,” the switch” to rely on JW religious belief driven by the threat of death at big A, and the lure of the hope of paradise.

Well in making this simple analysis it seems that the mechanism which makes a non JW into a true believer would now look highly improbable based on condition no.4 except in those countries where internet access is too difficult to access through cost etc.

So to fall into the JW trap involves all these things...but goodness! Surely no one can any longer evade the vast anti-witness exposure found on the net can they? This hurdle cannot be surmounted by the newbie.Will this be the downfall of the JW org? Future decline of membership will signal to the rest of the flock that it has had its day...don’t you think?

BTW is a human bean: Homo phaseoloides or is it Phaseolus anthropoides?

42

Please Focus on the Bible

by terrypike in

hi people, may i firstly thank those who have responded to to my intro article, i am replying to you all as a new topic because the direct messaging is not working for me at the moment so i can clarify my perspective on bible study.

yes there are many arguments that are put forward to demonstrate for example that the bible has been composed of numerous preexisting creation story's ect, my focus is to give the bible the same opportunity to defend itself as anyone reasonably expects if charged with some crime they are not guilty of.. i find for example the account of jesus response when questioned about the divorce certificate 'but it was not so in the beginning' confirms that moses allowed changes to be made to the original, that said consider also the religious traditions moses people had been exposed to, the story of the god enki who seduced even his own grandchildren and the well known incest of the egyptian royalty, given the genetic cost, are such practices any more right now than they were then?

communities that practice close relative marriages today are well documented for there higher risk of numerous health problems so how would you find moses on that basis, guilty or not guilty as jesus did because he understood why moses took the creation story's of other cultures and gave his people there own creation story that taught them to avoid the general pagan practice of incest.before looking any deeper at moses creation story may i also ask the question why does jesus knowing that god promised he would never again destroy the world by a flood as he did in noah's day say 'as in the days of noah ..the flood came and took them all away' so what did jesus actually mean mt 24:.

Half banana

Terrypike, clearly you want to defend the Bible and you have every right to chose that course but the Bible has already had a reign of 1500 years, yet only since the philosophical Enlightenment of the late eighteenth century has it been realised that the Bible is not justifiably “holy”. It has always been used as a tool for political control, overtly by the Roman Church and its contents have simply been assumed to be true. What a mistake!

This was challenged and refuted in the middle of the nineteenth century by textual scholarship and by scientists notably Darwin whose thesis of speciation by natural selection put paid forever amongst educated people, the possibility of a literal interpretation of the Bible creation account in Genesis. Since then scientific research continues to destroy the holiness of the Bible texts. Therefore if you want a serious argument you cannot possibly quote the Bible as an authority. You must find historical references backed up by first hand reporting and unambiguous archaeological evidence. Religious sources are hopelessly biased since they promote “faith” not evidence. Their function is to give emotional support for the downtrodden but never is evidential based fact called upon; simply the call to believe. Belief is cultivated and succoured by the imagination, knowledge however comes from evidence.

The fact that the Bible character Jesus is attributed with words endorsing the Biblical flood (which event was impossible) just demonstrates that Jesus is no authority and that the Bible is a waste of time for finding serious knowledge. Literature: yes it most certainly is, factual: no.

15

Sketches of Revelation, this and that

by TerryWalstrom in

i've been rummaging around on bart ehrman's blog and such and managed to distill six cogent views about.

the book of revelation, i thought i share for whatever it is worth.

1. parts of the book of revelation could scarcely be explained if it were written by jesus own disciple, john.

Half banana

And Thomas Jefferson was too...

18

How to get my kids out

by SaneAgain in

i've been disfellowshipped for about 5 years and extremely happy to be out.

my ex wife is still a regular meeting attender and takes our two young kids with her (8 and 6 years old).

i recently saw some of the caleb and sophia videos on the jw.org website and was completely appalled, i remember what i was taught as a kid growing up in the organization but this seems so much worse and now that i'm out i can plainly see the mind control.

Half banana

Whilst children are young there is a good opportunity to show by humour that what appears to be true is often a deception. In other words an important lesson for childhood, which is filled with innocent trust, is that authority and appearances must nevertheless be challenged.

Growing up has to include saying “no” even to adults sometimes. So it is very helpful for children to enjoy the experience of being kidded on by a parent and then allowed to discover for themselves the reason why something was deceptive. Hard to think of an example at the moment but I do remember when out walking in the countryside I picked deadnettle (not nettles that have died but a plant which looks like real nettles) and lashed myself with them for they have no sting. My son had to think really hard to determine what was happening because he couldn’t do it without getting stung until he realised that deadnettle only resembles the stinging ones.

The Borg want to deny non JW parents their right to guide their own children...I've been there and its horrid.

Perhaps JW children ought to be confronted with the grotesque demands of the Borg. Why are they so insistent in wanting to destroy the thinking ability of the young in their midst? They only want slaves, not thinkers.

18

What's the mechanism?

by Half banana in

i am perpetually challenged by the fact that most jws are completely duped by the propaganda pumped out relentlessly by the borg.

even intelligent ones; they unwittingly grovel to the gb decisions and follow the party line.

they do this for a number of reasons..

Half banana

Some very good points but Vidiot isn’t the propaganda the thing which sustains the Watchtower illusion after conversion (along with the social conformity which self regulates the behaviour)... rather than it being the cause? I suppose listening to the propaganda either drives you crazy or you give up and join!

@Finklestein, isn’t the business pattern of the organisation simply the historical reality, I can’t see the link for captivating minds? But the fear and threats you mention must be an inducement to change a person’s mind, imagining they will die if they don’t join...

@Sir 82, yes the WT vision is targeted at susceptible individuals; those whose earlier vision of the world has been shattered by disappointment or grave loss or those who cannot keep up with what life asks of them. The victim notes and marks the possibility of joining which is further cemented by friendships formed in the congo.

@Galaxy, you said

”There is somehow a need to rely on something out with our own workings to take the burden of what's perceived to be the unknown".

A belief that here is something which has resolved for us the cosmic eternities perhaps? You make a case for ” succumbing” to the org on the basis of being shown a ”comfort zone” environment into which the potential newbie could fit. I agree they must think both that they could cope with the ‘deal’ which means giving up ambition, money worldly happiness etc, and at the same time cope with trusting the beliefs (not knowledge) of others.

@Phizzy, your quote by Giordano, referencing the true believer book, is highly instructive because it sets out the very frame in which a true believer, whether JW or any cultist, can forgo their regular human life with its joys and troubles for an imagined future world of bliss.

That perfectly describes the world of religious certainty espoused by the WTBTS. It explains beautifully why the concerns of the present are played down to the point of irresponsibility (a trait which the early Christ cult introduced to the annoyance of the Romans) but even that does not quite describe the psychological drive or mechanism or 'switch' which makes for conversion to it (who's being picky then!)

I find this big irrational and emotional decision has a parallel with falling in love...what do you think?

13

Which school of thought is right about How long were the Israelite's in Egypt 215 or 430 years?

by terrypike in

a lot is out there about how long the israelite's were in egypt which can be devided into two schools of thought, those for bishop ushers 215 model or the ex 12: model which stays faithful to the 430 years to the very day ex 12:41 the israelite's left egypt.. historically the dispute goes back a long way at least to the time of jophesus who advocated the view that the isarelites were in canaan before they entered egypt true enough when taken at face value, but look more closely at what the bible says about when jacobs name was changed to israel and then ask the question is there any evidence in the bible that israel was used for the decendent's of abram, isaac or jacob before god changed the name of 97 year old jacob to israel?

a jw i invited to research this confirmed none could be found so that done it remains to look again at the definitions 'decendents' and 'israelite's' to further clarify.. the 400 years affliction as in gen 15: speaks of the decendents of abram only, nowhere does it say anything about the israelites, ex 12: on the other hand refers to the israelite's who came out of egypt 430 years to the very day and says nothing about the decendent's of abram so ex 12: is referring to 'israel' the decendent's of jacob not the decendent's of abram.

consider here that isaac the first born of the line of the promise and a decendent of abraham, died 180 years of age never having set foot in egypt, 10 years before 130 year old jacob/israel entered to reunite the tribal family's as one people, so by no stretch of the imagination can isaac be confused with the israelite's as is so easy to do when the ex 12: 430 year timeline is tied back to the days of abraham as is advocated by the bishop usher model that argues the israelite's were only in egypt 215 years.. gal 3: can be a problem only when read in isolation of other texts, use the same procedure as you would if someone said there was a contradiction with the gospels saying different things and ask them to read all four gospels to get the full picture, like wise with gal 3: which appears to be saying, by itself, that there are only 430 years between the circumcision covenant and the law covenant , read gen 47: and acts 7: to get a more complete picture of what paul has not said about 130 year old jacob's entry into egypt in the second year of famine.. to get the age of jacob start with 30 year old josephs age when he stood before the ruler of egypt and add the 9 year total of 7 years plenty plus two years famine which makes joseph 39, then take josephs 39 years off the age of 130 year old jacob to get 91 the age of jacob when joseph is born as jacob completes his 7 years work with laban for rachael.. jacob then agreed to work on for the beasts and he confirms he had worked a total of 20 years when laban caught up with him: 7 for leah, 7 for rachael, and 6 for the beasts.gen 31:38-41.. the key question when talking with jw's is how old was jacob when his name was changed, ask the questions and let them confirm from the book they trust what it really teaches.. terry.

Half banana

Hi Terry, welcome...I'm new here myself.

According to Egyptian records the Israelites never were in their land en masse. Since the land of the Canaan was near Egypt, for generations they had sought work as paid labourers or went to market their meat or olives at Goshen in the north east .

It must be remembered that the Israelites lived very much in the political and economic shadow of their neighbour. Egypt influenced almost everything they did and believed (and therefore the Bible too). There had been a time when Canaanite (Semite) influence had been present in Egypt during the Hyksos period but this was back in the early Bronze Age before the Israelites or Jews arose and it seems that the biblical captivity and Exodus stories are a folk memory reworking of this earlier event. The story was vital propaganda to Judaic nationalism since it upholds symbolically the nation’s escape from Egyptian authority.

But it isn’t a true story!

(See The Bible Unearthed by I.Finklestein and N.A.Silberman 2002 Touchstone. chap.2 Did the Exodus happen?)

18

What's the mechanism?

by Half banana in

i am perpetually challenged by the fact that most jws are completely duped by the propaganda pumped out relentlessly by the borg.

even intelligent ones; they unwittingly grovel to the gb decisions and follow the party line.

they do this for a number of reasons..

Half banana

I am perpetually challenged by the fact that most JWs are completely duped by the propaganda pumped out relentlessly by the Borg. Even intelligent ones; they unwittingly grovel to the GB decisions and follow the party line. They do this for a number of reasons.

Firstly because usually being uneducated, they think that this is a good life-choice move with the prospect of paradise. (skip the hard work I'll just take the prize!) Secondly, there is a large pool of ready made friends who appear to be decent welcoming human beans who will accept all-comers as long as they conform and believe the cult dogma.

There is a lot more to it but I am interested in the mechanism which turns ordinary sensible people into implacable Watchtower zombies where the religion takes over their life. If we can understand how this “mechanism” works would it help us extricate our families from the delusion?

I relate the process to fundamentalist radicalisation, do you think this is this the case?

48

If this isn't the truth, then what is our hope?

by Gigi2121 in

i'm new here but not new to researching and questioning the jw beliefs.

i have quite a story.... one that's been haunting me for awhile... but first, i'd like to hear what people have to say about this topic question, please.. -gigi.

Half banana

“Sometimes finding out what to believe is eliminating what is NOT true, isn’t it?”

A very good point Millie, it’s not possible to understand our existence clearly if you are dragging around old false assumptions.

The key to understanding is to question the validity of everything.

The greatest barriers to understanding are belief in holiness and faith.

If JWs don’t have the truth and you leave the mental dependency of religious obligation...one vital truth emerges: there is no single body of truth.

1

Psychology and art

by Brokeback Watchtower in

art has lots of psychological connotations and themes to it.

so i offer this site for your perusal.

lots of interesting essays about works of art.. http://www.psyartjournal.com/article/list/2014.

Half banana

Very interesting Brokeback. A superficial analysis of Watchtower illustrations: mindless and escapist utopianism driven by fear of loss and death.